Captain America (2016) #1 SPOILERS!!! Major SPOILERS

I walked past it at my comic store but I may get later to see where they go. Then I read an article about it. Geez what the fuck! It does have me intrigued.

Drunk Cap has some splaining to do!
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Comments

  • MihawkMihawk Posts: 302
    This is why I haven't read a Marvel comic in 3 years.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 525
    edited May 2016
    Here's the thing, the comic reads very different depending on whether or not you've read Avengers Standoff, the last issue of which was basically issue 0 of this comic (amongst others).

    If you know:

    A - Red Skull currently has the brain and powers of Professor X
    B - Hydra didn't exist in 1926

    Then the comic reads very different than if you don't know that.

    Both of those facts are brought up in Avengers Standoff - Assault On Pleasant Hill Omega, so Spencer clearly wanted to drill that home rather than rely on your Marvel Universe history knowledge.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834
    You won't want to miss Nick Spencer and Tom Brevoort's victory lap in today's issue of EW:

    http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort
  • BrackBrack Posts: 525
    edited May 2016

    You won't want to miss Nick Spencer and Tom Brevoort's victory lap in today's issue of EW:

    http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort

    Remember when they said Cap was deffo dead?

    If you've read Captain America - Sam Wilson #7, then you already know this is a Red Skull plot.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834
    Anyone recall the mid-90s and something called "The Crossing"? This was when Tony Stark/Iron Man was supposed to have been an agent of Kang the Conqueror since the latter's first appearance way back in Avengers #8. That's right -- 30+ of continuity and all of sudden Iron Man is a murderous villain.

    Oh, and when the Tony Stark we all know was killed, Marvel replaced him with a younger version of Stark. A college kid. It is regarded today as one of Marvel's most ridiculous ideas of all time. I think it's safe to say this Cap nonsense will be too, in the years to come.

  • BrackBrack Posts: 525

    Anyone recall the mid-90s and something called "The Crossing"? This was when Tony Stark/Iron Man was supposed to have been an agent of Kang the Conqueror since the latter's first appearance way back in Avengers #8. That's right -- 30+ of continuity and all of sudden Iron Man is a murderous villain.

    Oh, and when the Tony Stark we all know was killed, Marvel replaced him with a younger version of Stark. A college kid. It is regarded today as one of Marvel's most ridiculous ideas of all time. I think it's safe to say this Cap nonsense will be too, in the years to come.

    Except, it will probably make sense, because it's clearly just a Red Skull plot. Also: nobody's wearing brown leather jackets.

    Reading interviews does not equal reading comics. Things said in press releases may not resemble final storyline.
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 3,165
    Brack said:

    Here's the thing, the comic reads very different depending on whether or not you've read Avengers Standoff, the last issue of which was basically issue 0 of this comic (amongst others).

    If you know:

    A - Red Skull currently has the brain and powers of Professor X
    B - Hydra didn't exist in 1926

    Then the comic reads very different than if you don't know that.

    Both of those facts are brought up in Avengers Standoff - Assault On Pleasant Hill Omega, so Spencer clearly wanted to drill that home rather than rely on your Marvel Universe history knowledge.

    I'm not trying to insult Marvel, and this is a legitimate question. So Red Skull has the same power set as the Red Skull from Earth X? Is Marvel going to do the Cap story from Earth X?
  • BrackBrack Posts: 525
    mwhitt80 said:

    Brack said:

    Here's the thing, the comic reads very different depending on whether or not you've read Avengers Standoff, the last issue of which was basically issue 0 of this comic (amongst others).

    If you know:

    A - Red Skull currently has the brain and powers of Professor X
    B - Hydra didn't exist in 1926

    Then the comic reads very different than if you don't know that.

    Both of those facts are brought up in Avengers Standoff - Assault On Pleasant Hill Omega, so Spencer clearly wanted to drill that home rather than rely on your Marvel Universe history knowledge.

    I'm not trying to insult Marvel, and this is a legitimate question. So Red Skull has the same power set as the Red Skull from Earth X? Is Marvel going to do the Cap story from Earth X?
    Similar powers to Earth X's The Skull, but they don't appear to be doing Earth X. Yet. I could see them doing it if their Inhumans obsession keeps up.

    Red Skull has had the powers since Remender's Uncanny Avengers opening issue, so almost 4 years now. There's also an ongoing sub-plot with Red Skull and Sin in Uncanny Avengers since Duggan took it over. So that's probably going to eventually collide with this book's story, as Steve Rogers is a character in that book too.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834
    Brack said:

    Anyone recall the mid-90s and something called "The Crossing"? This was when Tony Stark/Iron Man was supposed to have been an agent of Kang the Conqueror since the latter's first appearance way back in Avengers #8. That's right -- 30+ of continuity and all of sudden Iron Man is a murderous villain.

    Oh, and when the Tony Stark we all know was killed, Marvel replaced him with a younger version of Stark. A college kid. It is regarded today as one of Marvel's most ridiculous ideas of all time. I think it's safe to say this Cap nonsense will be too, in the years to come.

    Except, it will probably make sense, because it's clearly just a Red Skull plot. Also: nobody's wearing brown leather jackets.

    Reading interviews does not equal reading comics. Things said in press releases may not resemble final storyline.
    Again, from the link.

    NICK SPENCER:
    Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834
    As with most things Marvel these days, it seems to be for the shock factor.
    "His mission is to further the goals and beliefs of Hydra," explained Brevoort. "If that involves taking down the Marvel universe, sure. It’s not like he’s exchanged his white hat for a black hat — it’s a green hat. We knew it would be like slapping people in the face. The idea of Captain America means something very primal and very strong to the people of this nation, and they have a very visceral reaction when you get to something like that. You want people to feel and react to your story. So far, so good."
    As long as they're talking about it, even if that's how much they hate it. I know all the hate tossed at Dan Slott's lead up to Superior Spider-Man made me check out a book I hadn't been reading in years, so maybe this will do the same for Cap, but I've since dropped Peter Parker's tales, and don't believe I want to read this repulsive tale designed to slap fans in the face.

    Revealing that Cap has always been an undercover agent for HYDRA is a baffling move, and one which is sure to alienate a lot of fans, me included so I won't be buying it. If it turns out to be a much-heralded 'rebirth' of Captain America, then I can always get it in trade. Still, in a Marvel Universe with no Fantastic Four, a dead Cyclops, and Peter Parker now Tony Stark-lite, this revelation shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
  • playdohsrepublicplaydohsrepublic Posts: 1,377

    Brack said:

    Anyone recall the mid-90s and something called "The Crossing"? This was when Tony Stark/Iron Man was supposed to have been an agent of Kang the Conqueror since the latter's first appearance way back in Avengers #8. That's right -- 30+ of continuity and all of sudden Iron Man is a murderous villain.

    Oh, and when the Tony Stark we all know was killed, Marvel replaced him with a younger version of Stark. A college kid. It is regarded today as one of Marvel's most ridiculous ideas of all time. I think it's safe to say this Cap nonsense will be too, in the years to come.

    Except, it will probably make sense, because it's clearly just a Red Skull plot. Also: nobody's wearing brown leather jackets.

    Reading interviews does not equal reading comics. Things said in press releases may not resemble final storyline.
    Again, from the link.

    NICK SPENCER:
    Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.


    All that still holds if someone has changed history or altered reality. It's sad when it's issue #1 of an ongoing book and you still have to remind people that there is more to the story. But that's Internet Town, Jake. Of course Spencer has to say, "This is what's happening". What's the point of having twists if you have to reassure people there will be twists? And in this era of where everyone thinks Marvel is a bunch of PC SJWs, they are really going to publish an ongoing book about a character created by two patriotic Jews, as a Nazi wrapped in an American Flag?
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834

    Marvel is a bunch of PC SJWs, they are really going to publish an ongoing book about a character created by two patriotic Jews, as a Nazi wrapped in an American Flag?

    Um, yes?
  • jaydee74jaydee74 Posts: 1,506
    Um. Wow. Not sure how to feel about it. I mean, wow. Also, how old is Sharon Carter supposed to be in the comics because she seems a lot older than I remember her being.
  • playdohsrepublicplaydohsrepublic Posts: 1,377
    jaydee74 said:

    Um. Wow. Not sure how to feel about it. I mean, wow. Also, how old is Sharon Carter supposed to be in the comics because she seems a lot older than I remember her being.

    She was in Dimension Z for like 15-20 years, so she's in her 50s now.
  • BrackBrack Posts: 525

    Brack said:

    Anyone recall the mid-90s and something called "The Crossing"? This was when Tony Stark/Iron Man was supposed to have been an agent of Kang the Conqueror since the latter's first appearance way back in Avengers #8. That's right -- 30+ of continuity and all of sudden Iron Man is a murderous villain.

    Oh, and when the Tony Stark we all know was killed, Marvel replaced him with a younger version of Stark. A college kid. It is regarded today as one of Marvel's most ridiculous ideas of all time. I think it's safe to say this Cap nonsense will be too, in the years to come.

    Except, it will probably make sense, because it's clearly just a Red Skull plot. Also: nobody's wearing brown leather jackets.

    Reading interviews does not equal reading comics. Things said in press releases may not resemble final storyline.
    Again, from the link.

    NICK SPENCER:
    Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.


    That's an interview, not a comic.

    In the actual comics, the Red Skull, as written by Spencer, has stated Hydra was something brought back by Strucker from the east (this is the established continuity).

    This places Cap's memories in this issue in doubt, it cannot have existed in the US in 1926, because it wasn't resurrected until WW2. This is reinforced by a scene in the same comic where Rogers life flashes before his eyes, unsurprisingly these new memories do not feature.

    In the actual comics, as written by Spencer, Red Skull secretly saves Steve Roger's life from Zemo during Standoff, because he needs him alive for his greatest triumph.

    image

    Anyway you cut it, in the comics, it's a Red Skull plot. The questions for people following up to this point are - what has Red Skull done? And how does it get undone?

    For new readers it's - why is this happening?

    Don't mistake the marketing for the story. The story already started months ago, this is just the first time anyone noticed it.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834
    Brack said:


    In the actual comics, as written by Spencer, Red Skull secretly saves Steve Roger's life from Zemo during Standoff, because he needs him alive for his greatest triumph.

    Still don't care for Spencer's take, or that Marvel is clearly doing this for shock value, but thanks for all the context.

    Hey, at least everyone on the board is talking about comics instead of movies and TV shows for a change. Yay!

    It's been a pretty good week for that, take Rebirth for example :)

  • HexHex Posts: 901
    edited May 2016
    oh brother. The Sky is falling, THE SKY IS FALLING!
    Don't get sucked into the hype, let it play out. Try to enjoy the story and see what happens before you jump to conclusions. Don't judge a book by its cover (or the last two words of the first chapter).

    I can't wait until I can say "I told you so".
  • David_DDavid_D Posts: 3,431
    edited May 2016
    Wait a minute, wait a minute... Cap died in 2007, didn't he??

    I just figured he was still dead. I mean, a comic book told me he was dead, and comic books don't lie!

    ;)

    At the end of the day, it's Big 2 comics. It's the house that Stan (co-) built, and sold and sold and sold.

    It is as likely to stick as anything else meant to provoke and shock. Like dead Steve, old Steve, Wolf Steve, Steve that is addicted to ice, Steve that renounces the uniform and is the Captain, etc. Sure the editors will play the press, just like Stan did. But it's Big 2 comics. This is the game. As Fraction once put it, the job with these never ending serial titles is "to break the toys as artfully as possible before putting them back together again for the next person". This sounds like another angle of that.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,908
    edited May 2016
    If @bralinator hates what's going on for Cap in the new series, he'll blow a gasket over what's on Twitter. There is a moment for Disney by fans (falsely implying all fans) to admit Steve & Bucky are gay & should just come out already. Apparently, Steve is either gay or bisexual, so the MCU should just admit it.

    M
  • playdohsrepublicplaydohsrepublic Posts: 1,377
    Look, you can dislike where a story is going, even choose not to continue with it. "It's not for me" is totally valid. But the vitriol (not here so much, but the Internet in general) makes it seem like these people have never read a comic before. We live in a sad spoiler culture where people need to be reassured beforehand that everything will be alright in the end otherwise they freak out that their childhoods are retroactively in danger. But if the creators say, "we have a plan, this won't last forever", it's like,"oooooh, backtracking already, are ya? I guess we, the fans, showed you what a stupid idea your stupid brain had." It's a no win situation. It's the same with movies and TV.

    But comics are on a hamster wheel. You can turn it forward, or backward, even flip it complete upside down, but you'll never really get anywhere. The wheel will turn on this too.
  • CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,146
    edited May 2016
    Just read the issue. It was a strong "borrow". I want to see where this goes with hydrarated Cap. There are a lot of questions to be answered.

    I am not sure how long this can last. Even a year seems unlikely. Cap being undercover secret evil has a lot of possibility but Marvel will probably take the more direct conflict route with everyone finding out the secret. A straight Steve Rodgers villian book probably has a short lifespan.

    I dislike his new shield. It just looks unwieldy and Cap not really being able to throw it takes a lot away from the character.

    I am not really a good judge on modern comic book art. I would say if you like the current "Marvel style" of art, then you will like this. It doesn't always work for me though. Some panels seem lifeless and sometimes I thought the sequential was missing in the sequential art of this book.



  • MattMatt Posts: 3,908

    Just read the issue. It was a strong "borrow". I want to see where this goes with hydrarated Cap. There are a lot of questions to be answered.

    I am not sure how long this can last. Even a year seems unlikely. Cap being undercover secret evil has a lot of possibility but Marvel will probably take the more direct conflict route with everyone finding out the secret. A straight Steve Rodgers villian book probably has a short lifespan.

    I dislike his new shield. It just looks unwieldy and Cap not really being able to throw it takes a lot away from the character.

    I am not really a good judge on modern comic book art. I would say if you like the current "Marvel style" of art, then you will like this. It doesn't always work for me though. Some panels seem lifeless and sometimes I thought the sequential was missing in the sequential art of this book.



    Isn't a non-shield slinging Cap just America Eagle (I think that was the shield welding character Marvel sued over)?

    M
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 5,167
    edited May 2016

    I am not really a good judge on modern comic book art. I would say if you like the current "Marvel style" of art, then you will like this. It doesn't always work for me though. Some panels seem lifeless and sometimes I thought the sequential was missing in the sequential art of this book.

    I flipped through it at the store today, but did not purchase the book. But I also thought Saiz’s artwork was very uneven throughout the book. The penciling and inking was fine outside of the occasional panel here and there, but it was really the coloring that brought the art down. His palette choices were fine—I particularly liked how he chose to handle the flashback scenes—but the execution was pretty heavy-handed, and his airbrush modelling had no subtlety at all. The art was the main reason I put the book back on the rack.
  • nweathingtonnweathington Posts: 5,167
    Also, someone above said that Sharon is in her 50s now, but at times she looked like a 70-year-old with a dye job. I guess there wasn’t any moisturizer in Dimension Z.
  • mwhitt80mwhitt80 Posts: 3,165

    hydrarated Cap.



    I don't care if you stole it or just came up with it. I am now onboard with Hydrarated Cap.
  • GregGreg Posts: 1,907
    What irks me is that Tom was going off in one article/interview that there is no mind control going on. No clones, no aliens, no alternate versions and did I mention no mind control? He was lying out his ass from the very get go and it's insulting.

    Of course its the Red Skull screwing around with Cap's mind, what better way to kick off Cap's 75 anniversary. It's lazy and predictable though.



  • CaptShazamCaptShazam Posts: 1,146
    mwhitt80 said:

    hydrarated Cap.



    I don't care if you stole it or just came up with it. I am now onboard with Hydrarated Cap.
    I was thinking of Hydra Cap. Then I thought of what Drunk Cap would say about this and I got Hydrarated Cap.
  • bralinatorbralinator Posts: 5,834
    Matt said:

    If @bralinator hates what's going on for Cap in the new series, he'll blow a gasket over what's on Twitter. There is a moment for Disney by fans (falsely implying all fans) to admit Steve & Bucky are gay & should just come out already. Apparently, Steve is either gay or bisexual, so the MCU should just admit it.

    M

    Oh my, stay away from Twitter if you can, it's crazy town. Nick Spencer barely takes time from his Hillary Clinton campaigning to tweet another anti-conservative insult every few minutes. Maybe this is his way of 'acting out' towards populists and libertarian comic fans who admire Steve Rogers. LOL

    @David_D may be right, Marvel must have killed off my Captain America back in 2007. The MCU is about all I have left and if the Russo brothers decide to make their version of Steve identify as a Samoan female Nazi, I guess I'll probably be done there too. I checked out of Cap-Wolf,. I checked out on the JRjr run. I can check out on this.

    Maybe it force me to grow out of this hobby that I love, but for now, I just won't buy this comic. My Marvel pull-list is pretty thin these days already.

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