TV News: Gotham


Ben McKenzie (Southland; OC) has been cast as Detective Jim Gordon in the upcoming TV series GOTHAM:

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=94241
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Comments

  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    edited December 2013
    Again, I haven't watch any episodes of Agents of SHIELD beyond the pilot yet, but the feedback I have been seeing does confirm my initial comments that this is a cliche, procedural show with comic book dressing.

    This new Gordon series seems the same way. Remember Smallville? We got a fleshed out backstory of Kent raised human. The man he becomes was apparent from what he went through & learned those years.

    I'd much rather see a Young Indiana Jones Chronicles-type show for Bruce Wayne then this. Much like AoS, we seem to be getting the non-central character series.

    I'm not interested in the Green Arrow Begins series, but at least its on the right track.

    M
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    I was thinking more Gotham Central than AoS.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    random73 said:

    I was thinking more Gotham Central than AoS.

    Didn't that have Batman in on occasion? This one still has the young Bruce. Plus, what famous criminals of Gotham are they referring to? If its Batman's Rogue Gallery, they all basically came about AFTER Batman appeared. Plus, is that going to imply they're all about 10-15 years older then Batman? I might buy Ras, but I heard he's stuck on another network fighting...Green Arrow(?!)

    I know this is in the preliminary stages, with nothing really released, but my expectations are it'll be a Life/NCIS/Law & Order series with some CSI & the Mentalist/Profiler sprinkled in.

    M
  • I view this show as being DOA by the time it airs.
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    Bunch of pessimists. :|
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    random73 said:

    Bunch of pessimists. :|

    ...or realists!

    M
  • Im with Matt, this sounds boring. It feels like a boring police procedural with vague batman connections.
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    Matt said:

    random73 said:

    Bunch of pessimists. :|

    ...or realists!

    M
    All pessimists think they are realists.
  • It's entirely too easy to be cynical about this proposal: it's nothing more than a cynical offering, a Batman series without Batman, focusing on a supporting character before he attained the rank he's most famous for or the association for which he's best known, and bereft of the colorful rogues gallery that crop up only because of the presence of the city's infamous vigilante, who hasn't yet emerged. What are we left with? An ordinary cop show. I can watch Law And Order: SVU for that. Or any other cop show. They have to come up with a very, very strong premise to make this show work, and I have no faith whatsoever that they can. As it stands now, I won't bother with it. Why should I? It has nothing unique to offer. Why don't they just bite the bullet and offer a Batman show? Or, at the very least, a Nightwing show.
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    You know why they want to do this as a cop show? Because it is safe. Law and Order: SVU has gone for 15 seasons. There are probably more cop shows on tv than any other genre. They are cheaper to make than adventure, fantasy, sci if epics and and honestly easier for people (non geeks) to wrap their heads around. This is, I imagine, an entry level foray into the Bat Universe. The first season of Arrow had no superpowers as a mantra. Now they've baby-stepped into the Flash! Awesome. I guess I'm trying to say, if we live up to the stereotype of The Simpson's Comic Book Guy and label EVERYTHING as the, "Worst Idea Ever". Then...we get what we have coming to us. Lighten up and give things a chance before crushing it for crying out loud.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    random73 said:

    Matt said:

    random73 said:

    Bunch of pessimists. :|

    ...or realists!

    M
    All pessimists think they are realists.
    And all optimists don't believe they're in a dream.

    M
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943

    It's entirely too easy to be cynical about this proposal: it's nothing more than a cynical offering, a Batman series without Batman, focusing on a supporting character before he attained the rank he's most famous for or the association for which he's best known, and bereft of the colorful rogues gallery that crop up only because of the presence of the city's infamous vigilante, who hasn't yet emerged. What are we left with? An ordinary cop show. I can watch Law And Order: SVU for that. Or any other cop show. They have to come up with a very, very strong premise to make this show work, and I have no faith whatsoever that they can. As it stands now, I won't bother with it. Why should I? It has nothing unique to offer. Why don't they just bite the bullet and offer a Batman show? Or, at the very least, a Nightwing show.

    Putting a bow on a pig doesn't make it not a pig. Same with this series. You can't name the lead James Gordon, have no Batman whatsoever (yes, different from Gotham Central), make it a procedural cop show & NOT just have a dressed up cop show.

    That'd be like claiming to making a Jack Ryan TV series where he's still in high school, read an article on the CIA, then the rest of the series focuses on the dude who becomes President in that universe.

    M
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    There is plenty of drama to mined in a Jim Gordon show. Young idealistic cop joining the most notoriously corrupt police force in the country. He's trying to raise a couple kids (one of whom we know grows up to be a vigilante and one that grows up to be a serial killer) in an increasingly complex and frightening world. This could be really excellent. It isn't yet. It isn't anything yet. It might be mad frakkin terrible but give it a chance to earn its terribleness.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M
  • random73 said:

    You know why they want to do this as a cop show? Because it is safe. Law and Order: SVU has gone for 15 seasons. There are probably more cop shows on tv than any other genre. They are cheaper to make than adventure, fantasy, sci if epics and and honestly easier for people (non geeks) to wrap their heads around. This is, I imagine, an entry level foray into the Bat Universe. The first season of Arrow had no superpowers as a mantra. Now they've baby-stepped into the Flash! Awesome. I guess I'm trying to say, if we live up to the stereotype of The Simpson's Comic Book Guy and label EVERYTHING as the, "Worst Idea Ever". Then...we get what we have coming to us. Lighten up and give things a chance before crushing it for crying out loud.

    Sure it's safe. Safe and predictable. And at least Arrow has Green Arrow; this is essentially a show hoping to get sold on the Batman association without any chance of Batman ever making an appearance. It's BS from the word 'go'. It isn't even an 'entry-level foray' -- it's a bait-and-switch. It's a fraud. It's the Emperor's new clothes. You could call this show "McGonnigle", about a cop transferred to a city even dirtier than the one he left, and what would the difference be?

    Fox is just wasting our time, trying to get us excited about a show by dangling a weak Batman connection to it. They're trying to tell us it's beef jerky, but all I see are the jerks; where's the beef?
  • Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    Here's the thing. I'm all about the writing. If the story if good, I'm in. And just like the Amazing Spider-Man movie and the Batman/Superman movie. I want these things to be quality. I want them to succeed so I as a consumer can have more of the stuff I like. And I agree with @playdoughsrepublic that Jim Gordon is an interesting character in his own right. About half of Batman: Year One is Gordon. Ex-marine coming from Chicago to an even more corrupt city, his wife is pregnant, he's having an affair with a woman at work. Like I said there is a lot of drama to be explored.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318
    That was just bad writing. Agents of Shield doesn't need a Nick Fury cameo every 6 episodes to make it work it needs strong storytelling.
  • Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    edited December 2013

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943
    edited December 2013
    random73 said:

    That was just bad writing. Agents of Shield doesn't need a Nick Fury cameo every 6 episodes to make it work it needs strong storytelling.

    I've seen enough feedback on the series to think otherwise.

    I don't see a Nancy Drew type series about Lois Lane growing up being successful, either.

    M
  • Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
  • Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
    What difference would the casting make? It's the premise that's the problem.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
    What difference would the casting make? It's the premise that's the problem.
    Its eerie how much you and I are on the same page on this. Most of our posts seem to be on the opposite ends on this forum.

    Getting Gary Oldman cast again can't save something with a crappy premise. It'd just be a waste of his talents & our time.

    Sidebar: it's why I haven't actually read the Batman comics since 2006. If I found out the premise of the story arcs & its not interesting to me, then no matter how well written, I'm not going to like the issues.

    M
  • Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
    What difference would the casting make? It's the premise that's the problem.
    C'mon, that wasn't meant literally. I just think there is a lot of complaining about something that we don't really know anything about. We know the setting and the plot of the pilot AND they are making it clear from day one that Batman will never be a part of the show.

    I don't thing the show could survive with the possibility of a Batman appearnce constantly hanging over it head. There would always be the question of when. It's one of SHIELD's problems. Every time something from the Marvel U doesn't appear people are disappointed.
  • MattMatt Posts: 3,943

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
    What difference would the casting make? It's the premise that's the problem.
    C'mon, that wasn't meant literally. I just think there is a lot of complaining about something that we don't really know anything about. We know the setting and the plot of the pilot AND they are making it clear from day one that Batman will never be a part of the show.

    I don't thing the show could survive with the possibility of a Batman appearnce constantly hanging over it head. There would always be the question of when. It's one of SHIELD's problems. Every time something from the Marvel U doesn't appear people are disappointed.
    How's this then, with what we know, we shouldn't crap on it, BUT we shouldn't be praising the show either. There's nothing really to give ANY notion of what the show will be.

    If @chuck_melville and I shouldn't be talking down the show, there shouldn't be anyone talking up the show based on the same info.

    M
  • random73random73 Posts: 2,318

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
    What difference would the casting make? It's the premise that's the problem.
    The premise isn't inherently bad. Nothing is inherently bad. It is execution that makes it so. Perfume: the story of a murderer Is an example of a ludicrous premise saved by brilliant execution. Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves on the other hand is a tried and true premise told and retold over generations that was executed poorly. (Apologies if it was a favorite childhood film that you love beyond all reason). ANY premise, with good storytelling can be well done. You are just demonstrating a tragic lack of imagination.
  • Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    Matt said:

    As I said, I know its in its very infant stages, but so far, it doesn't sound like anything beyond a procedural show.

    And, again, if you're using Gordon's kids, are we talking infants? I was under the impression Gordon adopted Babara when she was in her mid-teens. Which would mean she's older then Batman. Just like any Joker, Two-Face, & Riddler introduced. Why not just drop the wrapping & make it a cop show.

    I'd even think doing a 'current' time GCPD with Batman 'in' the series would work better. At least those 'infamous' Gotham criminals we'd get the origins for would make sense.

    M

    I'm about to defend this show, which is funny because I was so immediately unenthusiastic about it.

    A. DC shows don't care about making sense. Smallville and the aborted Graysons show prove they have no problem reconfiguring characters to fit whatever show they want. So "making sense" is irrelevant to them.

    B. You're talking about a period when GCP is completely corrupt, crime families rule the city and Gotham is a lawless cesspool. Watching Gordon try to take on Carmine Falcone, or the rise of Oswald Cobblepot, or Mr. Zsasz, or the Court of Owls. As for Babs being his adopted daughter, if you don't read comics you don't know that.

    C. Some, used sparingly, protoversions of classic villians could be cool... I for one would love to see a young Edward Nigma or Jervis Tetch. Or Arnold Wesker.

    D. Gordon is an interesting character in own right. Gotham's Popeye Doyle.

    It could end up just being a crap procedural. But the right take could also be really great. Gritty crime-drama with a light comicbook touch.

    @Chuck_Melville described what this show looks to be at this stage. Catwoman had the name in the movie, nothing else beyond that & a photo of Michelle Pfieffer to connect with the comics. Look what happened.

    You can tweak, but you can't remodel without running the risk of losing viewership...and fast.

    M
    I know! That's why Smallville was cancelled after 10 years and Arrow is so incredibly unpopular.
    Except neither series starred a supporting character without the central character.

    Plus, I don't recall Birds of Prey or Generation X lasting.

    M

    Those shows were terrible for reasons that went way beyond how they were adapted. If Gotham is as bad as them it will be cancelled.

    All I'm saying is that there is almost no information about this show except the plot of the pilot. It could be good, it could be mediocre, it could be god awful. There are many paths to each at this point. Why don't we wait for a casting rumor at least before we all grab the pitchforks?
    What difference would the casting make? It's the premise that's the problem.
    C'mon, that wasn't meant literally. I just think there is a lot of complaining about something that we don't really know anything about. We know the setting and the plot of the pilot AND they are making it clear from day one that Batman will never be a part of the show.

    I don't thing the show could survive with the possibility of a Batman appearnce constantly hanging over it head. There would always be the question of when. It's one of SHIELD's problems. Every time something from the Marvel U doesn't appear people are disappointed.
    How's this then, with what we know, we shouldn't crap on it, BUT we shouldn't be praising the show either. There's nothing really to give ANY notion of what the show will be.

    If @chuck_melville and I shouldn't be talking down the show, there shouldn't be anyone talking up the show based on the same info.

    M
    I've repeatedly said it could end up being awful, only that what we know now doesn't do much to inform one way or the other. In fact no one here has praised it. I'm just arguing that it isn't inherently bad just because it's a cop show set in Gotham.
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